Episode 7: A Chat with a Renowned Orff Schulwerk Teacher - Christoph Maubach, Part 1
Introducing Christoph Maubach
Thanks for joining our ‘Welcome to Music’ Podcast, Episode #7 where I’ll be chatting with Christoph Maubach, who is an internationally recognized music educator, Orff Schulwerk Practitioner and community singing leader. He divides his time as workshop facilitator and music and movement teacher between Germany and Australia. Christoph retired as a senior lecturer in music education from Waikato University, NZ and before that was lecturer in music education at ACU – the Australian Catholic University in Melbourne. In Germany he provides vocal workshops for Acappella groups and teaches music and dance at the Youth Music Organization ‘Verspielt’ (Playful) in Berlin. Christoph is an active Board member of the International Orff Schulwerk Forum Salzburg (IOSFS). He also conducts workshops in Taiwan, Europe, Australia and New Zealand where he leads the 2024 North Island Singing Tour.
If you'd like to watch the interview instead, view the video below.
Let’s start at the very beginning…
Susie
Hello everyone, and it's so nice to have you here at the Welcome to Music podcast for music, and classrooms in Early Childhood and Primary/Elementary schools, music therapists, studio music teachers, parents, and anyone who uses music with kids to support their well-being and development from zero to 12 years. My name is Susie Davies-Splitter, and I've been teaching music to all ages in early childhood, schools and universities over many years.
With my husband Phil, we run Welcome to Music where we create music resources, we have a membership community, and present training and programs for kids and educators. Our goal is to help build confidence and creativity and enrich lives through the joy of music. I hope that this podcast can support and inspire you and maybe even make your job a little easier through sharing tips, chats, lesson plans, interviews and great quality music resources to use with your children. I use an inclusive multi modal, multi-sensory and Orff based approach to help make the learning stick. Please enjoy the Welcome to Music podcast and find us at www.welcometomusic.net
So it's lovely to see you Christoph and you're in Taipei? Yes?
Christoph Maubach
Thank you, Susie. Yes, it's lovely to see you too. I am in Taipei, and it's quite nice. It's almost exactly halfway between Frankfurt and Melbourne. So you know, when I make that trip, either way, either from Europe to Australia or from Australia to Europe. I usually stop here.
Very nice. Very, very nice. And you've just been in Germany for quite a while?
Christoph Maubach
Yes. I spent time between about mid-April of this year. And just very recently, I arrived here in Taipei. So yeah. You know, on a personal level, can I say my dream to spend always half a year in Europe and the other half in Australia, New Zealand. At the moment that seems to be working. Let's see what happens in the future. But for the time being, I'm very happy to be looking forward personally to visiting my daughter in Melbourne. Also visiting friends in Melbourne, visiting yourself and others and being part of courses in New Zealand as well. You know, that's quite wonderful. It's a lovely opportunity.
Susie
Well, Christoph, it's such a pleasure to be able to interview you because we've been friends for a long time. I'm trying to think 30 years comes to mind. I don't know it's been a long long time. And we met of course in Melbourne but you've come from Germany. So let me start by asking you just explain to everyone.
How did you get involved in music when you were a kid? And I know there was some kind of family connection, but explain it to me?
Christoph Maubach
Look thank you, Susie, for asking that. I won't spend too much time on that question on the personal question, because I'm also keen to answer many of your other questions, but thank you for that. It's simple, and it's probably replicated in many other families. I come from a somewhat large family with five children. Both my parents played music, although they're different professions. My father played the piano quite proficiently, and in a Catholic kind of context where I grew up. Every Christmas time, my father would play Christmas carols on the piano, and we all sang. My mother was also into theatre, and she played the recorder early on, and my parents also danced. So that's where the foundations were. And as I mentioned, already, there was a religious context, I grew up in a Catholic family. And already, as a six year old, I was involved in the children's early childhood music group that sang twice a week, at somebody's place. And often the focus was to learn Latin or other Christian songs that could be presented during a church service on a Sunday. So I found myself as a six and seven year old, quite exposed in front of the altar of a Christian church, singing to the participants in the church, sometimes solo sometimes together with others. I guess, you know, very early on, I learned to express myself in such a way that other people could hear me.
Susie
Yes, and at a very young age, too. And just to have that family influence is just so vital. And so important, which we can talk more about, of course, yes. Wow, you had such a huge family influence with your mother, your father, and all those early childhood activities that you were involved with. Okay.
So what was it that got you to a point where you became so passionate about music, I guess, doing all of those things? Yes?
Christoph Maubach
Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, early childhood, these are formative years for every person, for every child, for you, for our colleagues, for everybody, for me, too. But then comes a period of thirst if I can put it that way. First, in a way that a teenager, a young teenager gets distracted in life by various other things. For a boy, it's also testosterone and other things that take you away from what your parents would like you to do. But I was very fortunate. I went to high school as a young teenager where music was a large focus. I had already started piano as a nine year old and flute as an 11 year old and that continued during high school times. And very soon during high school, I learned about jazz, I learned about rock and roll. I mean, how can you not learn about rock'n'roll when you grew up with the Rolling Stones and the Beatles. So you know, we tried to replicate that as 14, 15, 16 year-olds in high school. And these were also formative events. We formed our own band which was part of my own experimental rock band when I was 14, 15. And 16 years of age,
Susie
You know, I had a very similar journey to you very similar. So I didn't really have good models at school, in terms of my teachers, and in terms of teaching me music, there was very little. But I got involved with the kids in the neighbourhood and we had our Garage Band and we used to rehearse all the rock music because it was such good, good music, as you say, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and we had some really good Australian artists like John Farnham, I remember in 1969, listening to John Farnham, on the radio and getting very excited when I was in grade six. So that really makes a difference, doesn't it just being able to explore and experiment with music and particularly in improvisations.
It really makes sense, doesn't it?
Christoph Maubach
Yes. And may I say there was also one other aspect you know, particularly useful in those days when it comes to the instrumentation and the equipment. In those days, the 60’s the equipment was accessible. I mean, we’re talking about an electric guitar with six strings, a bass guitar, maybe a Drum Kit, or as it was originally, some kind of boxes that you found when you didn't have the money to buy a drum kit. But what I'm trying to say is the technology was achievable and accessible. Nowadays the technology requires a lot of learning. If you want to work these days as a DJ, you need to learn almost like a programmer, you need to learn digital equipment and things like that, add wonderful things to the realm of pop and rock music and jazz. But in our days, you know it was a little bit simpler?
Susie
Yeah, so haven't sort of thought of it like that. Although there are simple programs you can use, you know, GarageBand and Audacity. Yes. You know, there are simple programs that you can use. It's a totally different world now, isn't it?
Christoph Maubach
Yes, absolutely.
Susie
Yeah, I do agree, we were just able to just pick up a guitar and play something easy, maybe just starting with two or three chords and just jamming on that, which was so much fun. It was it was so good.
So we've had a very similar journeys in that way.
Christoph Maubach
That's nice to hear. I mean, it was shortly after high school in 1970. And 1971. I mean, my God, I'm showing my age as I talk about these years. But it was at that time that I was involved in a band, we cut our first long play record in Germany, this, you know, for our region, it was quite successful, actually. So much so that in 2012, 40 years after the event, I got a phone call in New Zealand, from somebody in Germany saying, ‘Would you mind if we re-edit your recording from 1971 and put it on a CD, and also re-edit it as a long play record’ for the members who had survived? We all agreed that we will do that. So you know, it was re-edited and republished in 2011.
Susie
Oh, how wonderful. These things that I don't know about you, Christoph. Good. Yes.
Christoph Maubach
It's true. We've all lived a long life.
Susie
Absolutely. That's why I'm doing this podcast, you see? That's great. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. So all right, so we've heard about your kind of childhood, going into high school getting involved in bands.
So then can you explain how you got into music, education, music and movement education, as a professional music educator?
Christoph Maubach
Thank you for that question, too. So I was a conscientious objector in the south of Germany, not going to the army in the early 1970s. And I had to do what we would call civil service. And I worked as a nurse, actually, in an institution where there were disabled children. And my job was to work with them every day to help feed them and dress them and build the elemental things that people need to do. And one day in this institution, I found a poster stuck to the wall where it said, Music and movement with the disadvantaged and disabled child, a course by Professor William Keller, from the Off Institute. And I thought, well, that sounds intriguing. I want to participate in that. So I did this weekend, course on a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday, that, you know, in a way we do these kinds of courses these days still for people who are interested in that field. So I attended that course. And within hours, I was hooked on the idea that you could learn about rhythm, melody and harmony by playfully working in a circle with body percussion, with singing, with patterns with sticks with balloons and various other things. So within hours, I was hooked on that. So I went to that Professor after the two days, and asked how to get more of this. And he said, ‘well, why don't you come to the open day at the Orff Institute in May,’ which I did. And the rest, you know, went on from there to actually do a course in the field of music and movement and improvisation because of my rock background. Improvisation was always my thing. As a matter of fact, our rock band had elite strong leaning towards jazz and you know, as playing the flute, in a jazz style in that Rock Band, that's how it started.
Courses available at the Orff Institute in Salzburg
Susie
Okay, so basically your tertiary education was the Orff course.
Christoph Maubach
Yes, I did four years. Yes. Yes.
Susie
So that was four years. Yes. And now, do they have that four year course now? In German?
Christoph Maubach
They do. Yeah.
Susie
Because I know they've got the one year English speaking well, it's nine month English speaking. Okay.
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Courses at the Orff Institute in Salzburg - continued
Christoph Maubach
It is what they call the Bachelor Course, the one that I did is now five years, not four years. And it is in the German language. Also, if you like a graduate diploma, a two year course. Then there's the English speaking course that you described. There are also various, what I would call, you know, alongside professional learning, that is professional learning for teachers who stay in their job. And you know, once every six weeks they meet somewhere for two days to study, they have ideas like that.
Susie
Okay, so, all right, so you did this course back in the 1970s, late 70s
And was there anybody we would know who were your teachers? Tell us any names?
How Christoph met Richard Gill in Salzburg and was asked to come to Australia
Christoph Maubach
So look, this is a good question, too. I'm very grateful. I mean, of course Barbara Hasselbach. There was a teacher from America by the name of Avon Gillespie, who came from San Francisco, who was actually the teacher of Doug Goodkin. Later as well. Yes, so they were very interesting staff at the time, but to make the link to Australia, for me, in 1977, in 1978, I also attended summer courses that the Orff Institute had and I became an assistant, making tea and coffee for the teachers of the summer course. And, there was a teacher from Australia, coming to the summer courses by the name of Richard Gill.
Yeah, he taught in Salzburg at the summer courses, and I was allowed to visit his classes to audit his classes, even though my job was to make him coffee. But I attended his sessions. And I was absolutely mesmerized by what he did. And I was engrossed with all his ideas and his skills and his pedagogical ideas as well. So you know, at the end of in 1978, in was it 1978 round about that time I asked him, if I never would make it to Australia, could I visit you and he said, If you come to Australia I’ll pick you up at the airport, which in the end he did, because the story doesn't end there. It just briefly continues in that Dr. Regner one of my teachers, offered me a teaching tour to Australia in 1978 for the German Cultural Center. He asked, ‘Would you like to spend a year in Australia’? And I said, ‘Yes, thank you very much’. And that was it. Then I find at the end of 1979 I found myself in Sydney and lo and behold, Richard Gill picked me up at the airport in Sydney and took me into his family for the first few weeks. Yeah.
Susie
How amazing Yes, so amazing. Yeah, Goodness me.
And obviously you already spoke English. I suppose it would have been a bit of a prerequisite?
Christoph Maubach
I spoke some high school English. But thank you Susie for mentioning that very important point for a music pedagogue for all of us language is obviously incredibly important. So after I had done a summer workshop in January, up in Armadale in New South Wales in January 1980. I went back to my accommodation in Melbourne. And I realized if I'm to start here in February, at a school and at university as it was planned, I have to learn English language materials so that I can actually teach. So I spent every night and every afternoon listening to in those days audio tapes, with materials from Richard Gill and others in the English language. And I learned these by heart. You know, I mean, sometimes I still remember these kinds of rhymes, songs, riddles, and ideas. You know, that was my job, I had to learn these things. Luckily, I love listening to music still to this day. And I loved listening to these nursery rhymes and songs from various experts of Australia. And in those days, and it helped me when I started teaching there. Yes.
How Christoph came to stay in Australia
Oh, my goodness. And of course, we know that you didn't just stay for a year. So what happened?
Christoph Maubach
Look and thank you for asking that too, because the fact there were some significant meetings. In the first three or four months, I realized that people in Australia are very curious and very hospitable. So, you know, I can tell you, I worked at what was then called Burwood State College, now Deakin University. And, you know, some of the students even they were curious about me, they said, ‘Would you like to come and stay with us at our beach house this weekend?’ I said, Yes. And somebody else would say, ‘We've got some horses out there past the Dandenongs. Would you like to come along with us?’ I said Yes, for sure. And I also incidentally, in those days, through coincidence, also through students, made connections with can I say, the Jewish community, the Israeli community in Caulfield in, you know, if you like your background, your region, originally, I met people there. And they invited me into their life, come and eat with us come and spend the Friday night with us during our celebrations. I was absolutely amazed with the kind of warmth and hospitality that was extended to me, especially by the Jewish community, in the context, where I come from, and you know, there my background was in, you know, that was even more so remarkable. And it was later in the year 1980, after I had already decided, if I ever get a chance to stay here, I will stay. It is that I met Audrey Klein, as she was called at that time and Gary King.
Susie
She's now called Audrey Klein again.
How did the Shenanigans folk dance band begin in the early 1980’s?
Christoph Maubach
Yeah. So I met Audrey and Gary and actually shared a house later in 1981 and 1982. And we formed a band Shenanigans. And again, I was invited into the community and, and the music of Shenanigans and what we created together, that really did it for me, you know, this will never go away. I mean, we hit it off very well with each other in terms of our ideas. You know, like every team of people there are, you know, creative frictions at times, as well. But it was really fantastic what we were able to create with each other. I mean, in terms of our own enjoyment. I mean, I can't even talk about what happened then later on in terms of how that band became famous but, simply sitting in our lounge room every day after classes and playing music together with Mandolin and Guitar and flute and singing and all of that. And at some point in 1983 I had a hurdy gurdy and all of that, I mean, the enjoyment that we created for each other was sublime.
Susie
Oh, and I just remember because I started getting involved with the movement, shall we say? Early 80s And I just remember going to workshops and camps and there were all sorts of things where you know we'd just all get together and jam and you and Gary and Audrey would so often play at our conferences and you were such an inspiration really to so many of us. And as you say, It wasn't long after that that Shenanigans became very well known all around the world. I know you went overseas, and you went and performed and facilitated workshops over at the American Orff conventions. And people still today are using all the wonderful recordings, all that beautiful folk music. So, for any listeners that don't know about Shenanigans, it's just a wonderful range of folk music, folk dance music from all around the world, beautifully recorded beautiful vocals. That is still used all these years later. Indeed.
Christoph Maubach
So personal circumstances when my daughter Amelia was born in April 1986. You know, I decided to withdraw from the band, I felt I needed a situation where I can securely look after my family in 1986. My son Anthony was born in 1989. And I made that decision, however difficult it was about a lot of musicians make that decision at some point in their life.
And would I be right, at that time, you then started teaching at schools and then University?
Christoph Maubach
Yes. So I had already taught part time I'd taught part time at Melbourne University in the Faculty of Education, Faculty of music was Orff classes. And then, in about 1988 or 1989, I was asked by what was then called the Mercy College in Ascot Vale, I was asked, ‘Would you come and teach three days per week for our students in this teaching program’, which I then took on that seemed like a secure thing to do. And from then on, it went further and further and I found myself from then on, basically in tertiary education.
Susie
Yes. And of course, Mercy College, became the Australian Catholic University. And I remember going to workshops in Pascoe Vale or Ascot Vale. It could have been Ascot Vale. And then, of course, the university moved to East, Melbourne. Yeah. Yes. And, yes. So you were involved in ACU for many, many years.
Christoph Maubach
21 years. Yeah. Wow. And till 2008. And it was interesting. You know, when we talk about the kind of courses that teachers can take, in order to further themselves in music and movement, education allowed off at ACU in the mid 1990s, we developed a graduate certificate course, in off music education. Later, it became a graduate diploma. And for some of the years that we developed it there, it was really a very successful course. And we were able also in some form or shape to work together with VOSA – the Victorian Orff Schulwerk Association to make that work. There was a desire by many teachers, to be active as teachers and music educators, to involve movement, to be creative, to allow children to be expressive. And many of these things we were able to offer in those graduate certificate was so wonderful.
Graduate Diploma or Graduate Certificate Courses in Orff music and movement
And my understanding Christoph is that there is nothing like it now anywhere in Australia, we need something like that?
Christoph Maubach
Yes. Look, can I say now having this unique opportunity to travel between the southern hemisphere and Europe and learning about what happens in Europe, and we could put a footnote here later on, because it's quite a challenge for me at my age, to learn things in Germany where I have really never been as a teacher. But let me come back to what I'm trying to say about the differences. For example, the Orff Institute is being held up as if you like a limelight for music and movement education, but it has to be said in places like Munich, Berlin. Hanover and other cities in Europe, these kinds of courses now exist as well. So the Orff Institute is not the only place where you can study music and movement in depth, you can go to other cities as well. So I agree with you Susie there would be ample reason to have Graduate Diploma or Graduate Certificate Courses in Orff music and movement in Melbourne in Sydney, if they aren't there already. I know for a fact that Auckland in New Zealand has something like that with Milly Locke. And there are probably others developing, but I do agree with you, you know, the kind of cooperation between Victoria Orff Schulwerk Association and a tertiary institution should be on the menu. Can I put it that way? Absolutely.
Can you tell us what is Orff Schulwerk? And how did you get involved?
Christoph Maubach
Thank you again, Susie, because you're allowing us both now to go into a bit more depth about this. Also this peculiar term Orff Schulwerk that you know, as some people might translate it as Orff School work.
So the German composer Carl Orff together with his colleagues developed this idea of an integrated form of learning about music in the 1920s, 100 years ago. And then later on, after the Second World War, it was reconceived by Gunild Keetman, the co-worker of Carl Orff as a music and movement approach for children in schools.
And that's where the word Orff Schulwerk comes from, in that, you know, music was published under the title of schoolwork in five different volumes. And from there, a pedagogical journey began.
So basically, what it is for teachers is combining music and movement, and spoken word or speech as an integrated approach that would allow children to learn about the elements of music in a creative, playful and active way. So the difference to any traditional, formally existing music approach would be, you actually get involved - hands on. Years ago, children would sit in a room, a teacher would play the piano, and they would sing hymns. And that was their musical education. Suddenly, the premise is, you get involved you play with instruments like xylophones, or hand drums. And as you play, you find out how music is constructed. How did they make this? How can I feel this way? joyful? For example, if it's a joyful kind of pattern that I'm playing, how can I feel this way? So this approach quickly became popular, because teachers realized children can get ownership. They own the music that they make, and what can be more motivating?
Susie
That makes such a difference. When people or children own the music. Yeah, they’re so much more engaged, they’re so much more motivated to be part of that experience.
Closing
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Join us for Episode 8, where we continue with this interview Part 2 as Christoph talks more about Orff Schulwerk and shares with us four beautiful canons of peace and hope.
